The topic: the response, the exuberant response, of U.S. citizens, including those claiming to follow Christ (myself included), to the death of the terrorist mastermind Bin Laden. Some rejoiced simply because he was dead. Some rejoiced because his death meant his evil reign had come to an end. As a Christian, one who claims allegience to Christ Jesus, we are told to "love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you" (Matthew 5:44), and again "love your enemies, do good to those who hate you" (Luke 6:27). Interestingly the word used for love in these passages is agape. This word does not mean we have to like the person or be their friend, but that we must choose to display love/kindness/compassion/mercy towards them. Thus, it would seem contrary to rejoice that a person died without knowing Christ as Lord and Savior, and has therefore landed in Hell. With that context in mind the following question was asked and the following conversation took place.  

---Please keep in mind that this was via social media so the normal rules of spelling and grammer do not necessarily apply.--- ---Also, I have changed the names of those having the conversation "to protect the innocent" ...isn't that what the movies always say? ---

I hope this gives you something deeper than normal to think about

always,

aj

Chuck: do you celebrate when an unrepentant relative dies; getting justice they deserve for their sin or mourn for their eternity?

David: That's not a valid comparison.

Nancy: Mourn--heavily...I still don't know how to reconcile completely and forever letting go of someone I love(d) who didn't know Christ...I can't wrap my brain or heart around it. I cried instantly when I read your post as I've lost several. Pastor Chuck, how does one completely let go or ever heal from the loss of losing someone who doesn't know the good news of eternity?

Chuck: what if we all got what we deserved? i am thankful for His Justice for without Justice we would never be able to understand His Mercy & Grace | no matter who someone is I cannot celebrate another soul lost to an eternity void of God...much like King David could not celebrate the death of Saul, a man of disobedience to God. Justice is His to deliver and for that I am thankful I do not have to make those decisions as to what & when it is to be administered. Regardless what method God chose to give justice on earth the justice & judgment of the eternal is of even greater importance, for I am never thankful that someone has to taste the sting of that Judgment when grace & mercy was available. People have the choice to obey or not, for that I am thankful, God is Just, for that I am thankful, God is merciful for those that want it, for that I am thankful, God is God and I am not, for that I am thankful...knowing someone has died as an unrepentant soul, regardless of how or if we deem it as Just, it is difficult for me to celebrate knowing the eternity that is before them... this is just my opinion & many other people are stating theirs just don't want us to lose sight of eternity, the reality of hell (a place prepared for the devil & his angels), the fact that people are watching how we respond. We are Christians who happen to be Americans, not Americans who happen to be Christians...in the same way Paul was a Christian who happen to be a Roman, not a Roman who happen to be Christian. What if we all got what we deserved? | earthly justice has been delivered, eternal justice is soon to follow, the first brings a closure the second should grieve our hearts because it is what we all truly deserve but Jesus took that punishment on Himself...

Denise: If I had a relative that was pure evil, I think I'd be conflicted--happy that their reign of terror was over and that they could no longer harm people, yet 100% sad for their eternal living quarters. I'm assuming of course you are asking because of all the rejoicing taking place because the evil OBL is now in hell forever.....If you are asking over a good person who just never recognized Christ as their Lord and Savior of course I'd mourn for their eternity.

Carl: I celebrate justice and evil ending, but I'm sad for his eternity. There is a tension. It's never wrong to celebrate justice (I can show you multiple Scriptures on that), but it is wrong to celebrate someone in hell. It's tough to live in the "tensions of Christianity"

Chuck: the tension is in how we are responding | we need to make sure we clarify what it is we as the leaders of the Christian message are celebrating, the world is watching via FB & Twitter | the reality is we all are evil, do evil in the sight of the Lord, our actions do have different consequences to others but none-the-less those actions of evil are worthy of the same punishment from God. I just don't won't us to paint the picture the we stand happy, celebratory, & rejoice over the death of someone who is now serving his punishment in hell... | to me the only difference between OBL & unrepentant anybody's are those who are impacted by their decisions... drunk drivers kill people, angry people kill people, drug dealers kill people...all have consequences to their actions but their sin is the same as those who lie, steal, have hate in their heart, or look at a woman lustfully... | we must make sure we clarify the justice while at the same time mourn for the reality of the eternal | Romans 10:9-21 & Ephesians 6:12

Carl: Well, I certainly haven't thrown an "Osama is dead" party or anything of that matter...nor would I be in front of the White House cheering. However, I do take pride that justice was served, and sometimes that justice is paid back brutally. I hate the fact that he never knew Jesus, nor tried to find him. I think this is a call to Christians everywhere to be intentional about sharing Christ wherever they are with whoever...but I think we have to be careful about thinking that Christians automatically go to the extreme of having a party...not all are like that...most struggle with the tension...but I don't feel bad about celebrating justice and the end his evil actions

Denise: God judges the heart. I don't think any drunk drivers set out in the morning looking for innocent infidels to mow down; and I would assume if they made that mistake they would be remorseful (hopefully); whereas someone like OBL obviously couldn't kill enough of us and never shed a tear at any of the deaths he was responsible for… in my humble opinion :)

Carl: And Chuck, sorry to disagree, there are HUGE differences in OBL and an unrepentant relative. There are different degrees of sin, and different consequences of sin depending on the degrees... all sin is equal in that it comes from our sin nature and contributes to spiritual/physical death...but not all sin is equal in how it is committed or punished...therefore, there are BIG differences between OBL and a regular person that isn't responsible for the deaths of thousands

Candice: I would mourn for Osama as much as I would mourn for the Pharaoh who killed all the Hebrew children, or Hitler - mass murderers all. It's sad to know that he rejected God's grace and mercy, and lived a life of violence and hate. And yes, I know that ALL sin is equal in the eyes of God, and I am thankful for His grace and salvation. I also know that this death will not change much when it comes to terrorism, because evil is busy at work in this world and will continue to be until the LORD's return. And I agree with Denise's post.

Chuck: If someone dies- in their sin without Jesus- where is their eternal destination? | we don't like the idea, I know, it hurts however in light of scripture the punishment in the eternal is the same...as far as our actions worthy or earthly judgment, justice, & punishment each has its own level of consequence for that I am fully aware... if i speed i get a ticket, if i speed i am still no obeying authority/law of land which is wrong...and the passage continues talking about how God can & will use governing authorities to exercise his will (he used good armies & bad, good authorities & bad to accomplish His will) even though I stand confident in God's Will, Justice, & Authority it is still difficult for me to praise that Justice when I know it will result in a Godless eternity...

Carl: Chuck, some believe that there are levels of rewards in heaven, what would you say about that? I would lean towards saying "no." However, if the argument could be made that there are levels of rewards in heaven, then could the same argument be made about hell?

Chuck: well the truth is whether I get a mansion or a tent in heaven I don't care because I am in heaven & don't we throw those rewards back at His feet... the same is true... regardless if you get A, B, C, or D type punishment in Hell, bro you are still in Hell

Carl: I understand your feeling...but there are some that believe in levels of rewards in heaven and level of punishments in hell...e.g., those who believe you eventually burn up in hell will tend to believe that the greater the sins, the longer you burn... so it's just an interesting tidbit...seemed to fit here... but you might want to rethink the unrepentant relative and OBL comparison

Chuck: am i comparing the two of them...i just posed a question and allowed others to think through the issue. My sin is just as vile as his; it may have different consequences, but the same heavenly punishment. If i hate others it is the same as murder, granted my hate may not leave someone else father or motherless, thus the consequences are much much much different, but the sin in the eyes of God and the punishment of death remains the same. I do see the difference but we have to filtering this through the same lens, should we not?

Carl: I don't think your sin is just as vile as his... your sin is equal in that it comes from a fallen nature and leads to death, but no, it is not as vile as a child rapist, serial killer, or so on... I have a hard time believing that. I know what you are saying in regards that sin puts you in the same place...yes, it leads to destruction, but no, it is not as vile as some

Chuck: i use this with the middle school students; which sin is greater... killing someone or steal a pack of gum? | is killing someone as little as stealing a pack of gum or is stealing a pack of gum as big as killing someone? | our system of measurement is built into us which measures consequence based on the nature of the action...again the consequences will be much different for the two of them but Jesus died for the murder in the same as he died for the gum thief because both were guilt of one part, which makes the guilty of all of it...thus in the wake of punishment for sin both in need of Jesus... right?!

Alex: i think, for the Christian, OBL's unrepentant death should convict us of the fact that we (probably) didn't pray for his salvation the way we should have... Apostle Paul was once a murderer, look how he ended up. Maybe if we, as Christians, had prayed the way we're supposed to OBL's end could have been different too... But, seeing as his end was what his end was I’m pretty happy about his evil being stamped out. I can understand that OBL could have had a problem with American hypocrisy, but his problem was with Christians, the infidels, and that's what he viewed all Americans as - Christians. As skewed as that view might have been, it is how many view America. I'm convicted i didn't pray as i should have, but i rejoice to see the justice, seemingly so rarely seen, actually delivered. i think Carl nailed it though, there is a tension. Though, it's one that i wouldn't have if i had prayed for OBL the way i should have.

Carl: Our sin makes all of us in need of Jesus...but I'm not sure that it is our system of measurement built in us that measures each consequence...it was in the OT that God laid out the measures of consequences, and even Jesus & Paul seem to talk about some sins being greater than others... however, all sin is equal in its origin and ending

Chuck: i didn't clarify the specifics & yes the measurements are different for earthly consequences in OT ...but that is my point that we do have a system that measures consequence based on the action however we sometimes use that same measure to the gravity of our sin. "Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me..." we loving grace but it is not amazing grace until we acknowledge we are in fact wretched... | "all sin is equal in its origin & ending" though my consequence of sin are different from OBL his sin needs Jesus just as much as my sin needs Jesus just same as your sin needs Jesus just as much as our unrepentant relatives need Jesus...yes?

Carl: I understand your point, but what I'm getting at and trying to explain by the "degrees of sin" is that the OBL comparison with the unrepentant relative isn't exactly true

Alex: Each sin is equal in that each sin caused Christ's death. So, whether we are a gum thief or murderer either of those actions meant Jesus had to die, so in that sense all sin is equal. But, in the practical-earth-bound sense those sins are totally unequal. I can make restitution by either returning the gum or paying for it with money, but i have no ability to bring a person back from the grave - Equal in Christ's death and our need for a Savior, unequal in human relational consequence.

Chuck: I agree the consequences are much different... however regardless if you are a mass murderer or a gum thief, if you are guilty of one part of the law you are guilty of all of the law...thus we are all in the same place regardless of the amount or magnitude of our sin, needing redemption & salvation only available through Jesus. That is the point I am trying to make so that we don't end up thinking he got what he deserved & celebrate his death & eternal punishment at the same time. Because getting earthly justice is one thing- you know the consequences you broke them it is coming...but to celebrate another soul, like mine or a friend or family member, punished to hell, I cannot celebrate. And we need to be careful we are not spreading that message or combining the two. That is what I am trying to get us to think about.

Carl: Exactly what I said a few posts up. Happy for justice (he did get what he deserved) and unhappy that another person went to a Christ-less eternity. We agree on that, we agree on where sin comes from and what the result is, but disagree on the whole comparison issue

Chuck: what i need understanding in then Carl, is how are they any different...both are sin resulting in death in need of Jesus and will get the same punishment (a guilty verdict) from God... | I am not trying to be combative here if I am wrong in that understanding of eternal punishment and my reading of scripture help me understand. I do agree the consequences of sin here, but are they not the same when standing before God?

Alex: that is true... perhaps the only soul we should celebrate being in hell is the eventuality of the devil's and his minions'. Well, he did get what he deserved; he got what we all deserve. His death, because he deserved it shouldn't be celebrated, his death because his evil is gone should be... Again, it's that tension.

Alex: OBL is possibly some Christian's lost family member... kind of makes me think about having a family member that is guilty of a crime and has a warrant out for their arrest. Do you hide them b/c it's your family member, or do you hold your family member to the same standards you would hold a stranger to? I think the problem is that we care for our lost family members, and though the Bible tells us to, we really don't care about OBL. The whole "love your enemies" part sounds great when we say it, but i doubt many of us really practice it that often.

Carl: Chuck, you are focusing on the origin and end...but you're not looking at his life on earth. His sin was vile, and NOT equal to yours...therefore we can celebrate justice being served. I recommend that you do a study on the theology of sin and see how God deals with degrees of sin. Even Jesus dealt with degrees of sin, as did Paul. Not only does Scripture address it, but I believe that it is in the "imago dei" inside of all of us...we know evil when we see it...

Chuck: I have & will review that area more specifically but my point is meant to look at the eternal punishment more than the earthly consequences | am i wrong in the conclusion, which yes is more of my point, that while standing before the creator we both would be considered guilty of the law, thus punished for sin to hell?

Chuck: in short both in need of Jesus

Chuck: is it safe to say then that we may not be equal in the weight of our sin however both guilty of sin receiving same punishment if without Jesus? Is it the same as saying you get eternal punishment x 5 vs. eternal punishment x 5000? Are both still eternal punishments when void of Jesus?

Alex: in that you are correct. Standing b4 Yahweh, both gum thief and OBL are guilty of breaking the law. It's interesting the Bible doesn't say don't break the laws (plural) it says it law (singular). I kind of picture it like a porcelain statue; whether your break off just one small piece (maybe an arm?) or break it in half, we would say "you broke the statue" not "you broke the statue's arm." In either case we have broken it and devalued it. It's sort of the same thing; i can't break one piece of the law without breaking it all, because it's all part of a whole, all part of one law. It is God's law, not God's laws... So, in that sense, yes, you are correct. But, as careful as we have to be in how we celebrate the death of evil we must be as careful how we compare the murderer to the gum thief. :)

Chuck: but they are both guilty...thus the same, criminals of the law of God

Ryan: I wish that satanic man had died 40 years ago. God had the Amalekites wiped out for being evil. Laden and his followers are worse. He spent his life leading thousands to hell!

Ryan: I know Carl but I defy anyone to stand in a Nazi Concentration Camp and tell me it was a sad day when Hitler died. There are very evil men in this world. There are men who live and because they live the world is a much more dangerous and evil place to be in. It's wonderful to be so safe and so flowery. The truth is that some people have forfeited their right to live. Let us not forget God's own words in Genesis 9, "If anyone takes a human life that person’s life will also be taken by human hands. For God made human beings in his own image."

Ryan: Also, I do not want to disrespect Chuck. I know he was not saying that OBL did not deserve to die.

Chuck: does one deserve to die thankful was not mine to decide- that was God all throughout scripture giving those standards. The difficult reality is that i deserved to die when i dishonored my parents, used His name in vain, & disobey the commands of God. we have all done things that through God's standard in OT is deserving of death...so the issue is not does he deserve to die, i think that is clear, the issue is do we remember that we too deserve to die if we are basing the completely on the word of God. There are passages of scripture dealing with rejoicing when the wicked have been destroyed & there are passages that say we are not to celebrate when they have been destroyed. reading these a little more i have found there is 'tension', as Carl put it, that we have to be very careful of. We can rejoice in the fact the actions of this wicked person will stop, even though they will just continue with someone else...but we must not rejoice in the reality of another soul, created in the image of God cast into a Godless eternity. We must be careful not to mix the message that the wicked deserve what they got...because if they did then none of us would be here. Understanding there is a difference between me & Hitler; you & OBL however according to God's Word we are all wicked, guilty, & in need of Jesus. i hope that makes sense...

Chuck: my last attempt: i have a family member this was not their first time to be convicted of arson. He was caught and is now in jail for attempted murder & arson. Am i thankful he is in jail so that he is unable to hurt other people...yes...am i ready to celebrate that he is in jail...no. My main point is that we as leaders of the message of Jesus must be careful how we celebrate the justice of God, the very thing we all were pardoned from by Jesus taking our punishment on Himself. When we make the issue more personal it changes things. We all have broken commands in scripture that are deserving of death as a justice punishment from a Holy God. that punishment was fulfilled by Jesus in our place...for that we must not forget that the love of God was still available & strong enough to save someone like OBL or Hitler if they so choose. From their life & actions it is evident they did not want it or anything to do with God...for that God's justice was fulfilled. Despite what they did they are still people through whom the enemy had skillfully deceived into an opposing doctrine. They have got what they deserved in agreement with His Word & standard, however i am still thankful that I did not get what I deserved when i committed acts punishable by death according to His Word. Being thankful for His Holiness, Justice, & Judgment is great because we know He is Holy & Just...but we still must be careful we don't celebrate in such a way that paints the picture that some people are too far gone or unworthy of the very grace we received. This is also coming from a place where i have talked with many people who admitted they did not pray for OBL, which we were commanded to do. Am i sad he is dead? No. Will I throw a party or celebrate that he is dead? No. Am i happy he will spend eternity in hell? No. Do i know God is just in His decisions? Yes. Again the issue isn't me mourning over God's Justice as much as how we celebrate that justice on selective people more than others...which all deserve the same punishment, according the Word.